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Post by Fay on Dec 19, 2009 16:59:49 GMT -5
Which do you think is stronger? Now, this is only cannon shit. So no ss4 goku. Basically, ssj3 Gotenks or ssj 3 Goku? Also, which do you like better?
Now, my main problem here is that the answer is NOT CLEAR CUT. There's none of this: "Gotenks > Goku, FAXTS!!1!;LAKN;!!1"
No, it's not a fact at all, you admirable douche bag.
Okay, 1st of all, fat buu was easily bested by ss3 Goku. It's plain to see. Goku would have lost because Buu keeps regenerating while Goku sustaining such a transformation for a little while would have drained the rest of his time on Earth. Therefore, Goku > Fat Buu. That's only as far as raw power level goes. Kid Buu's power decreased when he became Fat Buu, due to the Kai's goodness. That's what happens when pure good and pure evil combine.Therefore, Kid Buu > Fat Buu. Goku was stronger than Kid Buu. Therefore, Goku > Kid Buu. Now, when Super Buu (the one that absorbed Gotenks) lost the fusion transformation. Goku even stated himself that he could take him on alone. No need for him or Gohan to fuse any more (unless that wasn't cannon?) And that was super buu WITH pickle-face and the two brats. Now, Super buu WITHOUT them (the one without a nose) is definitely weaker than that. And Gotenks beat him. Therefore, the answer is not a clear cut one.
Now, Goten and Trunks are not regular ssj's. As kids, it is logical to assume that their power level will not be as strong as a regular adult ssj. So we can't just assume ='Two ssj's combined with fusion, plus the addition of ssj3 means stronger than any other ssj3 without fusion."
As far as I see it:
The only reason why Gotenks reached ssj3 is because of their fusion. The power of two ssj's combining was enough to push them to that level. But that does not mean because there are two of them, they are stronger than just 1 ssj3. Mainly because they are kids. And because they aren't even ssj2 seperately.
I say they are near equal, and quite frankly, there's no other evidence to prove otherwise. =/
Discuss.
Oh, and I like Goku better.
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Post by Haloninjaman808 on Dec 20, 2009 3:55:50 GMT -5
After evaluating the whole issue, Goku would still probably be stronger. Not Only in strength but in tecnique. This is due just to the fact of senority. He has had more training and has a wider range of attacks. ON another note the fusion is very limited, since it might timeout in a fight or be forced out by goku. The fight would be even for the first few moments then gotenks will falter a little or lose too much energy. Goku however, will still keep them on the ropes. If Gotenks loses SS3, its over for them, Goku, however, still has tricks under SS3.
GOKU FTW!!!
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Post by Baller on Dec 20, 2009 4:05:49 GMT -5
Mystic Gohan > all.
No but seriously, Goku would probably still be stronger being a pure Saiyan. Trunks and Goten are only half-Saiyan and can never reach their full potential even after fusing.
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Post by Oka Ace on Dec 20, 2009 4:30:16 GMT -5
Okay, 1st of all, fat buu was easily bested by ss3 Goku. It's plain to see. Goku would have lost because Buu keeps regenerating while Goku sustaining such a transformation for a little while would have drained the rest of his time on Earth. Therefore, Goku > Fat Buu. What? Goku wasn't easily bested. He was losing, none of his attacks did jack shit to fat buu. Buus bleed, Buus even sweat. That's how you know a Buu's losing. In that battle Fat buu did neither of those two things. Goku would have lost because he would have lost his transformation. On earth SSJ3 doesn't last that long. I'd say an hour at most and that's even stretching it. Yes it also takes his earth time away but also takes all his Ki away aswell. Also Like I said in the chat. Once the battle was over. The others asked Goku if he would have won had he and Fat Buu Continued fighting. And he said No. He's too strong. They were all shocked after he said that as well. That's why he decided to teach Goten and Trunks the fusion dance. He also told them, and I quote "once you learn how to properly fuse, you will be even stronger than me". If you dispute this I will track down the manga scan. It didn't make him weaker. Before Absorbing Fat Kai, Kid Buu Absorbed East Kai, turning him into Buff Buu, and Buff Buu was stronger than Super Buu. What hindered him was that he was no longer Pure evil, and that made him weak in the sense he wasn't about chaos and destruction anymore. He was a now a child who wanted to play. There's a serious difference in all Buu's. I'm not sure I want to go into it because it's confusing as fuck but I'll try. From strongest to weakest. Super Buu Gohan absorbed > Super Buu Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed > Buff Buu > Super Buu > Fat Buu this Buu has the East and fat kais absorbed and is a split personality of both sides, Mr Buu who has Fat Kai and Evil Buu who is the essence of Buu's evil nature > Kid Buu the original > Evil Buu as said above > Mr Buu So Like I said Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. He has the strongest kai's in him. It's just his personality is changed so that hes not a psycho killer like he originally was. Furthermore. Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu. He said he couldn't. He could only take on Kid Buu and win. Because he stated that he would have won when he was talking to Vegeta. The Kais planet allowed Goku less strain when using Super Saiyan 3 but there still is strain. But less enough strain that he could have one. The reason he didn't win straight away is because he's Goku he wanted to fight Kid Buu as long as he could. But was mad that he didn't finish him when he has the chance. Because as the fight went on Goku lost power and got worn out. So Mr. Buu and Vegeta had to hold off Kid Buu until the spirit bomb was finished. AND Gotenks was able to take on Super Buu and win. The reason that didn't work is because the fusion split right before they had a Point blank Kamahameha in his face. That wasn't canon. He never said that in the manga. I don't know if you know this. But it's a well known fact that Half Saiyans are potentially stronger than full Saiyans. So you're right they aren't regular SSJ's. Goku said when watching them turn SSJ as children that they have the potential to surpass him. This is evident with Gohan as well because he did just that. They are also rivals, and that adds a fusion boost as well. Also Goku said they were going to be stronger than him too... jesus. They studied to be SSJ3 in the hyperbolic time chamber. From seeing Goku do it in front of them once. That's how talented they are. They perfected the fusion dance to that extreme. The fusion dance can quadruple 2 separate peoples power. Goku said that the people who taught him the technique were some of the strongest fighters in the galaxy. But without it they were nothing. I think That SSJ3 Gotenks severely outmatches Goku on power. Not fighting spirit nor intelligence but in power definitely yes. He's on another level. Him, Fat Buu and the Buu's i listed above him, Mystic Gohan and Vegito. The ony buus Goku could fight are Kid, Evil and Mr. and that's only if hes on king kais planet. I've started my internet life on Dragonball Z forums. I was on the Budokai 3 board, Dragonball General, All the budokai Tenkaichi games on Gamefaqs for over 3 years. Go there and ask who ShaolinAce is. So I've had my fair share of VS topics man. I know my DBZ.
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Post by Haloninjaman808 on Dec 20, 2009 4:36:18 GMT -5
Damn...
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Post by Oka Ace on Dec 20, 2009 4:55:02 GMT -5
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Post by Fay on Dec 20, 2009 14:32:21 GMT -5
What? Goku wasn't easily bested. He was losing, none of his attacks did jack shit to fat buu. Buus bleed, Buus even sweat. That's how you know a Buu's losing. In that battle Fat buu did neither of those two things. That's because 1.) He was only buying time, he didn't want to go all out. If he did, you would have saw Buu staring to bleed. 2.) Buu still has the highest level canon regeneration in the entire series. So, place someone with Fat Buu's power level, yet make him just a human, and he would have been getting thrashed. Goku was completely superior in every way, aside from stamina and regeneration. Buu could rarely even land a hit on him. It was clear which was more stronger. Goku would have lost because he would have lost his transformation. Exactly, me lad. Not because he was weaker than him power level-wise, but because he couldn't keep such a high power-level on Earth, weak ass planet tis is. On earth SSJ3 doesn't last that long. I'd say an hour at most and that's even stretching it. Yes it also takes his earth time away but also takes all his Ki away aswell. More evidence to how powerful it makes him. lol. Thanks. Once the battle was over. The others asked Goku if he would have won had he and Fat Buu Continued fighting. And he said No. He's too strong. They were all shocked after he said that as well. He said, probably too strong. And he probably meant in overall strength. Which includes stamina/regeneration. Not just power level. That's why he decided to teach Goten and Trunks the fusion dance. Only because he couldn't beat Buu in the alloted time he had as a ssj3. So he thought ahead of the game. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have defeated him if he had more time in that form. In fact, he would have whipped that ass based on what we saw in their fight. Like, just completely one-sided. He also told them, and I quote "once you learn how to properly fuse, you will be even stronger than me". Wouldn't that be perfect motivation for them to do it correctly? Surely, there's no way to know if they would truly be stronger than him or not. After all, he's never seen them fuse yet. =/ It didn't make him weaker. Before Absorbing Fat Kai, Kid Buu Absorbed East Kai, turning him into Buff Buu. What hindered him was that he was no longer Pure evil, and that made him weak in the sense he wasn't about chaos and destruction anymore. He was a now a child who wanted to play. You are right, it is logical to assume that him being more childish means he is 'weaker', but at the same time (in this kind of manga, at least) when you combine two powers that reject each other, then the overall potential power will decrease. For example, the power level. A lot of the Kai's magic power comes from being pure good, same goes for Buu, being pure evil. If you combine those two, the power is sure to be unbalanced and not to its full potential. A good analogy would be this: If I am a feather, I would be light as air, however, if I absorb a rock, I won't be as light anymore. Also, just in case you were wondering, the reason why Buu's power didn't decrease when absorbing warriors like Gohan and Gotenks, despite the fact that they are 'good', is because their raw sayian power is not dependent upon magic, which is in turn dependent upon moral alignment. Unlike, the kai's and Buu, which are magical creatures. And thus, dependent on their morality. Understand? So Like I said Fat Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. Not necessarily. Like I sated above. Furthermore. Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu. He said he couldn't. He said probably. And the reason why was not necessarily because of power level. But most likely because he couldn't sustain it for a long enough time. I don't know if you know this. But it's a well known fact that Half Saiyan's are potentially stronger than full Saiyan's. Potentially. That's the key word. Basically, the theory is that they have a better chance at attaining a new ssj level. But that's all. And even if that were true, that makes no sense. Humans are weak. That's stupid. =/ So you're right they aren't regular SSJ's. Yeah, they are kids, which decreases their power level substantially. Goku said when watching them turn SSJ as children that they have the potential to surpass him. This is evident with Gohan as well because he did just that. Once again, potential. You know, when they are adults. They studied to be SSJ3 in the hyperbolic time chamber. From seeing Goku do it in front of them once. That's how talented they are. They perfected the fusion dance to that extreme. Talent doesn't necessarily have anything to do with power level. However, that would help them if they actually fought. Such as tactics and such. Still, I think Goku surpasses them in that department, so it is a moot point. The fusion dance can quadruple 2 separate peoples power. Evidence that it increases their power 8 TIMES? Or is that 4 times? Either way, I think you're exaggerating. And like I said, it is not like it was two ssj3's fused. Heck, it wasn't even two ssj2's fused. It was two, ssj kids. Goku said that the people who taught him the technique were some of the strongest fighters in the galaxy. But without it they were nothing. Yes, fusion can make little ssj kids, take on one of the most powerful creatures in the universe. Doesn't mean Goku couldn't have. I think That SSJ3 Gotenks severely outmatches Goku on power. Not fighting spirit nor intelligence but in power definitely yes. He's on another level. That's nice, but my point is that it is not a clear cut answer. It's not 100% Gotenks > Goku. I've started my internet life on Dragonball Z forums. I was on the Budokai 3 board, Dragonball General, All the budokai Tenkaichi games on Gamefaqs for over 3 years. Go there and ask who ShaolinAce is. So I've had my fair share of VS topics man. I know my DBZ. lol. Anyway, my logic is this: Gotenks became a ssj3. A regular ssj3. He went into that power realm. He's not necessarily stronger than an average ssj3 or anything. Gotenks, as a separate entity than trunks and goten, became ssj 3 as a kid. Goku is also a ssj3, except he is an adult. Even if Gotenks is stronger than him, it cannot be by much. It wouldn't make any sense. If you take two ssj's, then one shouldn't be too much stronger than the other, unless one of those ssj's are actually two ssj's combined into one. That would make sense. However, like I already pointed out, Gotenks is not two ssj 3's. Nor is he even two ssj 2's. Just two kid ssj's.... that's all. So, really, even with the loss of my powerful point where Goku said he could take on super buu now that he lost Gotenks, it's still not a clear cut answer. By the way, I'm GAR for Vegito right now. <3 Also, Ace, what should we do with the other thread?
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Post by Oka Ace on Dec 20, 2009 20:11:59 GMT -5
Give me some time to write up a responce. I don't think I can do it today lol.
We should just lock the other topic.
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Post by Fay on Dec 31, 2010 17:36:52 GMT -5
Fayrra thinks he can! *remembers Goku vs Gotenks topic* It's not hard when your argument is "Gotenks is stronger" and mine is "you can't know that for sure." I still don't agree with that one. But arguing Fayrra when hes wrong is like pulling teeth. If you could explain to me how I'm wrong for saying it's not 100% manga facts, then by all means I'll admit I'm wrong. I'm not biased.
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Post by Oka Ace on Dec 31, 2010 19:49:27 GMT -5
Well it's pretty obvious concidering Gotenks nearly defeated Super Buu when Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu.
Not only that but Gotenks ripped a whole in the ROSAT(room of spirit and time) Just by screaming at it.
And I remember even posting a scan where goku stated they would be stronger than him.
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Post by Fay on Dec 31, 2010 23:41:02 GMT -5
Well it's pretty obvious concidering Gotenks nearly defeated Super Buu when Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu. Goku wasn't afraid to fight the Super Buu that Gotenks defeated. He was afraid to fight the one that absorbed Pico and Gotenks. Not only that but Gotenks ripped a whole in the ROSAT(room of spirit and time) Just by screaming at it. The only way this would be relevant is if Goku tried and couldn't. =/ And I remember even posting a scan where goku stated they would be stronger than him. Goku had no way of knowing that. It's called hyperbole. He simply wanted to motivate them. There's no logical basis for him to know they would be stronger. There's no proof in the situation he's in. He also had no idea that they'd be able to reach ssj3 anyway (he was surprised when he found out they attained it). Cell also participated in hyperbole. He stated that he would be able to blow up the solar system. Which is bullshit. He was trying to demonstrate how powerful he was by exaggerating. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperboleAll I'm saying is, someone stating something before they themselves have even seen the proof is simply a guess in the end. You can't take that as an extreme amount of proof. The author himself may have just thought that was the perfect thing for Goku to say to motivate them. There's seriously nothing that says "Gotenks > Goku" power level-wise. Seriously, even if they are stronger it can't be by much. Not without more evidence. I'm not trying to twist the argument in my favor, I'm just thinking in a more intelligent manner. You can't just accept things like that as facts. And there's nothing that says Super Buu was that much stronger than Fat Buu. Super Buu's basically Fat Buu without the child-like attitude (though Super is stronger; it's mainly due to the lack of innocence- as stated by Pico). I'll give you that Kid Buu's weaker, but Goku could have easily killed him. And when he was fighting with Fat Buu he wasn't struggling at all. He simply didn't think he'd be able to win with the small amount of time he had. All of this is evidence that it's really hard to tell which is stronger. I'm sorry, but it's just not enough proof for me. I don't see how that makes me stubborn and "wrong."
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Post by Oka Ace on Jan 1, 2011 1:09:55 GMT -5
Well it's pretty obvious concidering Gotenks nearly defeated Super Buu when Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu. Goku wasn't afraid to fight the Super Buu that Gotenks defeated. He was afraid to fight the one that absorbed Pico and Gotenks. Yes he was. Super Buu was much stronger than Majin Buu the one Goku faught. And this where he said he would have lost to majin buu. The arguement should end right here. And I remember even posting a scan where goku stated they would be stronger than him. Goku had no way of knowing that. It's called hyperbole. He simply wanted to motivate them. There's no logical basis for him to know they would be stronger. There's no proof in the situation he's in. He also had no idea that they'd be able to reach ssj3 anyway (he was surprised when he found out they attained it). Cell also participated in hyperbole. He stated that he would be able to blow up the solar system. Which is bullshit. He was trying to demonstrate how powerful he was by exaggerating. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperboleAll I'm saying is, someone stating something before they themselves have even seen the proof is simply a guess in the end. You can't take that as an extreme amount of proof. The author himself may have just thought that was the perfect thing for Goku to say to motivate them. There's seriously nothing that says "Gotenks > Goku" power level-wise. Seriously, even if they are stronger it can't be by much. Not without more evidence. I'm not trying to twist the argument in my favor, I'm just thinking in a more intelligent manner. You can't just accept things like that as facts. Gotenks is stronger due to the power of fusion. The fusion streingth boost is huge. Hell I even think SSJ Gotenks may be stronger than Goku since he can circle the entire world in 5 minutes. And there's nothing that says Super Buu was that much stronger than Fat Buu. Super Buu's basically Fat Buu without the child-like attitude (though Super is stronger; it's mainly due to the lack of innocence- as stated by Pico). He's stronger because he relys more on the power of south Kaioshin and not da kaio (fat kai) like Majin Buu does. South kaioshin was the strongest kai. And super Buu uses his striength. I'll give you that Kid Buu's weaker, but Goku could have easily killed him. No Goku and Kid Buu are equal in striength because Kid Buu is the original Buu without using anyone to add to his striength with his absorbtion power. Removing all the people he absorbed made him weaker. Which is why Goku faught him. He wouldn't have faught Super Buu because he knew he would get creamed and he was able to fight majin buu because Majin buu uses more of da kaio's power. And when he was fighting with Fat Buu he wasn't struggling at all. He simply didn't think he'd be able to win with the small amount of time he had. All of this is evidence that it's really hard to tell which is stronger. I'm sorry, but it's just not enough proof for me. I don't see how that makes me stubborn and "wrong." He wasn't because it wasn't a real fight, they were both testing each other out. Majin Buu was enjoying fighting with someone nearly as strong as himself and Goku was buying time for trunks to get the dragon radar. The thing is fayrra. Kid Buu is the 2nd weakest Buu and majin buu is 3rd weakest. Super Buu and up is too much for Goku. Only SSJ3 Gotenks, Vegito and Mystic Gohan are able to defeat Super Buu. Gohan was much much Stronger than Super Buu. When Super Buu absorbed Gotenks it made him more powerful than Gohan by alot and thats a huge power gap to fill. More proof of Gotenks power.
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Post by Fay on Jan 1, 2011 3:14:58 GMT -5
Yes he was. Super Buu was much stronger than Majin Buu the one Goku faught. Show me proof of Goku being afraid to fight him. And show me proof of Super Buu being MUCH stronger than Fat Buu. And this where he said he would have lost to majin buu. The arguement should end right here. Not enough proof. He said he didn't think he could win. Not, "he definitely cannot win." And he said "Majin Buu is really strong", not "he's stronger than me" Regardless of whether or not he could win, he wouldn't be able to beat him in time before his time ran out. Because the more power he uses, the less time he has. He could have been saying Majin Buu was too strong for him to instantly defeat even if he went all out. Thus dragging out the fight, and thus him leaving Earth before he could win. Once again, there's no definite proof. Also, I like how on the next page, Goku states that he didn't even want to try to kill Buu, not because of the energy problem, nor that he might not be able to win, but because he wanted the kids to do it, as he needs the next generation to be strong enough to handle evil forces on their own. In the end, he didn't know whether or not he could defeat Buu in time, but he didn't care to because he wanted them to do it. He was willing to risk it all. Also, one other thing, Goku later goes on to say to Vegeta that he probably could have beat Fat Buu, but he wanted to leave it up to the Kid's. view.thespectrum.net/series/dragon-ball-volume-01.html?ch=Volume+42&page=90See how character statements aren't exactly the most reliable now? I would think Cell yelling out he could destroy the solar system should be sufficient enough, but if Goku later saying that he probably could have beat him isn't enough to convince you that you need actual proof, then I don't know what will. So once again man, not enough proof. = ( He's stronger because he relys more on the power of south Kaioshin and not da kaio (fat kai) like Majin Buu does. South kaioshin was the strongest kai. And super Buu uses his striength. The power of ALL the kai's are inside Fat Buu. We know this because the power of both Pico and Gotenks were in Super Buu. Therefore, Buu doesn't discriminate. He gets ALL the powers he absorbed. Super Buu is the result of Evil Buu eating Fat Buu. And thus, is able to use his power without becoming as innocent. These are manga facts. That is exactly what we saw. There's no manga panel that says Super Buu rely's on a certain Kai's power more. It's simply that he doesn't have his conscious hindered and is thus more to his true potential. And even if he is using a kai's power more (no proof that he is) the strongest Kai is an ant compared to Kid Buu. So it doesn't make him that much stronger anyway. Therefore, Super Buu is not that much stronger than Fat Buu regardless. No Goku and Kid Buu are equal in striength because Kid Buu is the original Buu without using anyone to add to his striength with his absorbtion power. They're equal now? Other than the fact that Goku said that he could kill Buu if he charged up his power? Also other than the fact that Buu has regeneration powers? If it weren't for those, he would have been dead 10 times over. Goku was obviously superior in power-level. But Kid Buu outlasted him via regeneration/stamina. Goku spent time using attacks that weren't enough to permanently do the job, then when he finally realized he needed something bigger, he needed to charge up his energy for a minute. He wasn't because it wasn't a real fight, they were both testing each other out. Majin Buu was enjoying fighting with someone nearly as strong as himself and Goku was buying time for trunks to get the dragon radar. Evidence that Majin Buu pulls his punches? He may have been having fun but that's ONLY because Goku was strong enough. He has a child-like mentality and doesn't know the meaning of restraint. Goku on the other hand wasn't taking the fight seriously and still didn't even get hurt when Majin Buu punched him (this is proven, unlike your statement that Majin Buu was holding back). He was able to completely match Buu without going all out. Super Buu and up is too much for Goku. Only SSJ3 Gotenks, Vegito and Mystic Gohan are able to defeat Super Buu. Yeah, when you show me proof I'll agree with you. Gohan was much much Stronger than Super Buu. When Super Buu absorbed Gotenks it made him more powerful than Gohan by alot and thats a huge power gap to fill. More proof of Gotenks power. So? That's the power of SSJ3. I can play that game, too. Look at what fusing Vegeta and Goku, did. It allowed him to not only take on and rape Super Buu. But a Super Buu that was infused with 2 SSJ's, Pico, and Mystic Gohan. Alone, it's just an SSJ2 Vegeta, who of which couldn't even stand up to Fat Buu. But an SSJ3 Goku allowed him to pass that insane Buu fusion powerhouse by A LOT. THAT is an even bigger gap to fill. SSJ3 is a strong transformation. But I don't see how Gotenks is stronger than Goku when the only reason Gotenks attained SSJ3 was because of the two of them being SSJ's and fusing together. There's no evidence to provide otherwise. Seriously man. It's not like they were two SSJ 2's. They were regular SSJ's. They only just barely attained SSJ3. There's nothing saying that they were special a SSJ3. And therefore, they should be in Goku's power realm regardless. If they're stronger, it's not by much. You can believe what you want to. But I'm not the wrong one for not accepting it as anything but your own personal speculation that has no good proof behind it.
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Post by Fay on Jan 1, 2011 3:38:11 GMT -5
And you know what I realized?
They could have just teleported Gohan to the Kai planet and had him eradicate Kid Buu after they brought him back. Instead of going through all of that crap with the super spirit bomb. XD
Oh, yeah, and love you too, Ace. I forgot you said that. <3
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Post by Oka Ace on Jan 1, 2011 3:45:02 GMT -5
Love you too man.
I'm looking for the scan where Goku states he and vegeta can't beat super Buu. When I find it I'll post it. And reply to your post aswell. It's 2 hours and 45 minutes into the new year so I'm going to bed right now. But dont worry it will continue tomorrow.
Also I'll try move our posts into this topic.
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